PD-85/105 - Center, Rim hit, Rimshot problems

[Qudeid]

Hi there,

I've started fine tuning my MD and tried to make it possible to have all the above, but I kinda failed to get consistency there.

So what I did:

MDM Tom.png

I, unfortunately, reverted most of the things but based on those values I added a 3rd Zone note and played around with MidPoint and MidPoint Width. While Rim/Edge was supposed to be the Rim hit note and 3rd Zone note the Rimshot.

When testing it I would get Center hits consistently on the center, but only sometimes rim hits on the rim and rimshots (when hitting harder). I couldn't see a pattern why it would react like it did. It wasn't how hard I hit the rim for example.

How, before delving into the whole topic: Is it even possible at all to do this? Would positional sensing (don't have the module yet) change everything or is it completely irrelevant here?

Thanks

Qudeid

[dmitri]

1. Your 3rd zone Notes are 0.
2. 3rd zone MidPointWidth is 1. You'll unlikely to get 3rd zone with such MidPointWidth.
3. I'm not sure I understand what the problem is and especially how you get rim and rimshot without 3rd zone notes.

[Qudeid]

Oh, like I said, the screenshot wasn't the version where I did get them. It looked something like this:

MDM Tom.png

Those weren't the exact values, but I would only get a consistent head hit. Rim hit was sometimes only those, sometimes mixed with head hit or only head hits (although I was hitting the rim).

Just wondering if there is something fatally off here, so I get this behaviour.

[ignotus]

Did you follow the correct process to get those high levels? Also, lower your thresholds until they start auto-triggering, then raise by 2 or 3. Threshold, particularly on the rim, might be too high. Once you have high level and threshold set properly, play around with midpoint and midpoint width.

Though it shouldn't affect head and rim separation, I find it hard to believe you can get any kind of dynamics with those compression and level shift values

[Qudeid]

Did you follow the correct process to get those high levels? Also, lower your thresholds until they start auto-triggering, then raise by 2 or 3. Threshold, particularly on the rim, might be too high. Once you have high level and threshold set properly, play around with midpoint and midpoint width.

With High Levels Auto I got around 1000 and 800 respectively. Played a bit around with those and didn't find any difference. What is the correct process? Does DynLevel and DynTime also factor into this?

Though it shouldn't affect head and rim separation, I find it hard to believe you can get any kind of dynamics with those compression and level shift values

I was mainly looking to get this separation going and only checked if I got the whole range of 127 velocity in. I will tweak those when the technicalities work as I want them .

Just to make sure, once I get the Positional Sensing addon, will this force me to tweak again or won't it affect the separation as it only produces the CC messages?

[ignotus]

With High Levels Auto I got around 1000 and 800 respectively. Played a bit around with those and didn't find any difference. What is the correct process? Does DynLevel and DynTime also factor into this?

Yes, with 'high levels auto' on, whack the pad hard about a dozen times and then set to 'no'. It shouldn't go past around 1000, otherwise it's an indication that the pad is too hot. You probably didn't notice the difference because of your compression and level shift values. I'd leave them at 0 for the time being and tweak them later. Dynlevel and Dyntime are for filtering out false hits so they don't have any bearing on zone separation.

ust to make sure, once I get the Positional Sensing addon, will this force me to tweak again or won't it affect the separation as it only produces the CC messages?

In principle it shouldn't affect separation, but as you might have to tweak your minscan value for the head to get PS working well, you might have to make a small adjustment, but nothing major. But it could also work without touching anything other than the PS-related settings, so don't worry.

[Qudeid]

Yes, with 'high levels auto' on, whack the pad hard about a dozen times and then set to 'no'. It shouldn't go past around 1000, otherwise it's an indication that the pad is too hot. You probably didn't notice the difference because of your compression and level shift values. I'd leave them at 0 for the time being and tweak them later. Dynlevel and Dyntime are for filtering out false hits so they don't have any bearing on zone separation.

Done, but it doesn't seem to help much with the separation:

MDM Snare.png

It's my snare pad now (PD-105) as that one is more important to get right.

The head hits are correct and fine, but no matter how soft I hit the rim, it's always the 3rd zone that is triggered. I don't know how that one rim hit snuck in there, I can't reproduce it. At least there are no head hits in there at all.
If I lower the MidPoint value head hits sneak in, if I set it higher, not. And MidPointWidth doesn't seem to help here either. Any hints here?

In principle it shouldn't affect separation, but as you might have to tweak your minscan value for the head to get PS working well, you might have to make a small adjustment, but nothing major. But it could also work without touching anything other than the PS-related settings, so don't worry.

Alrighty, I'll tackle that when it becomes relevant.

Thank you so much already, at least stuff seems a little clearer now!

[ignotus]

Try putting head and rim in the same crosstalk group; say, 1, and set crosstalk to 4. Then start off by setting both MidPoint and MidPointWidth to 0. First raise MP until you get proper separation. If you can't, try raising crosstalk. When you have that sorted, then start raising MPW, testing rimshots by making sure you hit both head and rim at the same time.

I have head and rim in the same crosstalk group and crosstalk at 7, so chances are your problem's there.

[Qudeid]

Try putting head and rim in the same crosstalk group; say, 1, and set crosstalk to 4. Then start off by setting both MidPoint and MidPointWidth to 0. First raise MP until you get proper separation. If you can't, try raising crosstalk. When you have that sorted, then start raising MPW, testing rimshots by making sure you hit both head and rim at the same time.

I have head and rim in the same crosstalk group and crosstalk at 7, so chances are your problem's there.

Okay. I still think I'm missing something. First, to make sure, the 3rd Zone hit should only trigger, when doing a proper rimshot (hitting rim and head), right?
Second, at very light hits (barely touching it, it feels like) I do get a good separation but hitting harder results either in head hits or, when MP is higher, 3rd zone hits. Mind that MPW is at 0.
Maybe I even think of this totally wrong, aka too much in E-Drum ways. I mean on acoustic drums you can't hit the rim hard and just get a little louder rim hit. It's supposed to be light.

So in the end I got something like this after tweaking around:

MDM Snare.png

At MPW4 I wouldn't get the 3rd+Head hits (I hope it's right to get those two registered). But as you can see on the rim hits, even a little bit too hard triggers the 3rd zone.

[ignotus]

Okay. I still think I'm missing something. First, to make sure, the 3rd Zone hit should only trigger, when doing a proper rimshot (hitting rim and head), right?

Yes.

Second, at very light hits (barely touching it, it feels like) I do get a good separation but hitting harder results either in head hits or, when MP is higher, 3rd zone hits. Mind that MPW is at 0.
Maybe I even think of this totally wrong, aka too much in E-Drum ways. I mean on acoustic drums you can't hit the rim hard and just get a little louder rim hit. It's supposed to be light.

You should be able to get soft to hard hits on both head and rim independently - e.g. you should be able to assign a cowbell sound to the rim and get the full dynamic range, and it shouldn't trigger a head or a 3rd zone note.

When 3rd zone notes creep in when just hitting the rim you need to raise MP more.