DIY Cymbals & a lot of questions

[stefan1982]

First of all, I'm sorry if this post does not belong in here. I searched, searched again, read almost all topics about DIY and Cymbals, without any succes to find what I'm looking for.
So, posting the question in here.

I've been researching how to make my own cymbals for a couple of months now. While there is plenty information to find, fact is that almost every post here or on other forums (like drums.info/vdrums/edrummer.com) are incomplete.

The question is, how should one make a reliable 3-zone (ride/crashride)-cymbal (Bell/bow/edge) with choke-function, for use with the MegaDrum TMI?

And how should one make a reliable hi-hat for use with the MegaDrum?

What is more preferably, using an old A-cymbal and convert that to an e-cymbal, or use 6mm acrylic to make an e-cymbal?
What material is more reliable, and which one is the preference of choice?

When should the Keith Raper circuit exactly be used? I do not seem to grasp the idea behing the piezo-piezo, and the piezo-switch circuits?

I hope there are some people willing to help me out..

[airflamesred]

I can't really help you with the hi hat as I am allergic to them but with the cymbals I would definitely go with a metal conversion. Plastic would be like using a Frisbee.

[privatex]

I'm in middle of making cymbals from some old acoustic pieces. Single or double zone crashes-splashes are not big deal but ride and hats are tricky. Easiest way to make 3 zone ride is piezo/switch/switch model, there's no separation between two piezo signal from same surface which is very hard to accomplish. My observations are that thinner cymbal are much better for triggering if you use some rubber for damping your stick sound , if you dont want any rubber pad on top of cymbal its not important.
With piezo/piezo/switch way it's hard to confine zones and there is always mix between two piezos signal.
At the end instead of using switch for bell I ended with using piezo but on surface which is isolated from rest of cymbal (piece of tin on top of bell isolated with 4mm rubber-foam between real bell with piezo-it's just bigger metal surface of piezo which is isolated with rubber and have form of regular bell of cymbal).
Here is an idea for bell:

I suppose that all this infos are easy to find on this forum and net, however it's good for make discussion go Everybody can give you one good tip and there you are.

[airflamesred]

That's very good Privatex. I had a similar idea myself though just mounting a small splash on a cymbal extension like this.
http://ebay.absolutemusic.co.uk/gibscmcsa6.jpg

[privatex]

Nice extension, there's one more way to resolve bell on ride cymbal

It's fusion of airflamesred and previous ideas. And for shure acoustic cymbals are way better than plastic, especially if you dont want any rubber on top of cymbal, you got real feel and good, reliable piezo triggering. This is a most tricky part of this diy project, for everything else you gonna be good, it's not big deal.

For hihat you have bunch of posts:
http://www.megadrum.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2485
http://www.megadrum.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=881
http://www.megadrum.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=422

Good luck!

[stefan1982]

First of all, thank you everybody for trying to give me a hand here. I really appreciate the help, and looking forward to spend some more time on the forum here so I could help others as well.

Now:
Perhaps I'm mistaken some things here, but what _exactly_ are we talking about when we speak of single zone, 2 zone and 3 zone cymbals?
1 zone: 1 piezo (Usage: crashes/splashes?);
2 zone: 2 piezo's (Usage: ???);
3 zone: 2 piezo's with a circuitry to separate the different zones (which I do not understand which one to use. Keith Raper?) (usage: Ride cymbal, triggering edge/bow/bell);

Anybody could elaborate?

[ignotus]

Perhaps I'm mistaken some things here, but what _exactly_ are we talking about when we speak of single zone, 2 zone and 3 zone cymbals?
1 zone: 1 piezo (Usage: crashes/splashes?);
2 zone: 2 piezo's (Usage: ???);
3 zone: 2 piezo's with a circuitry to separate the different zones (which I do not understand which one to use. Keith Raper?) (usage: Ride cymbal, triggering edge/bow/bell);

Anybody could elaborate?

1 zone: 1 piezo. Yes, crashes/splashes/hi hat; any cymbal you want really, where all you need/want is one sound.

2 zone: Can be 2 piezos or piezo/switch.

a) 2 piezos: one in the bell area and another close to the edge, for bell and bow/edge sounds (2 zones - normally rides). The main difficulty with this method is getting the module to know which area is struck, though it can be done easily enough by tweaking the module's parameters. The good thing about this is that it's easy to make (just stick 2 piezos under the cymbal), but you don't have the choke function. Another option is to isolate the bell piezo with one of the methods Privatex mentioned.

b) Piezo/switch (switch on top of outer rim): The piezo goes under the bow area and then there is a switch on the outer rim. A bow strike triggers the bow area and when you strike the switch on the edge, it triggers an edge sound, taking the velocity information from the piezo. If you hold the edge of the cymbal, closing the switch, you get a cymbal choke. Usage: usually crashes/hi hat. Downside: Homemade switches are hard to make and tend to have reliability issues over time - they have to withstand constant beating. They also look messy as they go on top of the cymbal. Pros: perfect zone separation.

c) Piezo/switch (switch under the outer rim): As in the previous example, only the edge switch goes underneath the outer rim. In this case you only have the bow sound and the switch is just used for choking. Usage: crashes/splashes. Pros: easy to make, reliable over time - the switch doesn't take a bashing. Cons: No edge zone, though some VSTs like Addictive Drums don't support it anyway, so not really a con.

3 zone: Normally 1 piezo and 2 switches. Like before, the piezo goes under the bow area, then there's an edge switch on the outer edge (as described in b) above) and another switch on the bell area. The bell switch has *I think* a 10k resistor wired in series, going to the same input as the edge switch so the module knows which switch was hit. Known as the "Yamaha-style 3-zone cymbal", you get 3 zones: bell, bow and edge + choke (by grabbing the edge switch). If making an edge switch is tricky, making a bell one is even trickier. People have been known to build such cymbals but I don't know how they held out over time. Usage: ride cymbals, hi hats, any cymbal where the VST supports 3 zones for a single cymbal.

Another way to make a 3-zone would be with 2 piezos and 1 switch, but would use two stereo inputs on your module. You stick one piezo under the bell (or use Privatex's method); another piezo under the bow and an edge switch. You wire bow piezo/edge switch to one input and bow piezo/bell pìezo to another input. Use same note/parameters for the bow piezo in both inputs, and configure one as a dual piezo/switch input and the other as a dual piezo input. I haven't tried it but I reckon it should work.

Oh, and I'd forget about the Keith Raper circuit - it's been tried but the results were always unreliable.

I'm sure there are more options but I hope this more or less explains the most widespread options used. Have a look at the DIY section at the Vdrums forum for DIY switch designs. I'd first look at what VST you're going to use and see how many zones it supports for each cymbal, and then decide what types of cymbals you want. There's no point in making a 3-zone crash if you're using Addictive Drums, because it doesn't support it (though it does for rides and hi hats). Or maybe your VST does support 3-zone crashes but when drumming you never use the bell - so maybe it's not worth the hassle to make a bell switch or whatever. Best of luck anyway whatever path you choose! And sorry for the lengthy post...

[stefan1982]

@Ignotus: Wow, thank you for such a splendid and lengthy answer! Really what I was looking for..

Now, something you need to clarify - if you are willing to do so - is about the switches..
Why are people trying to make their own switches, and not simply using filmswitches? (I'm not completely new to electronics, although it has been a while when I was told about it at school).

And, are these switches you are talking about true switches?

Do you have any idea why the Keith Raper circuit has a unpredictable outcome, when used?

I probably am going to use Superior Drummer 2.4 and Addictive Drummer 2.
What build method for my ride and crashes do you recommend? Which one is the easiest, and most reliable?

I probably want to make a 18, or 20" ride, and a couple of 18/17/16 crashes with some 8/10/12 splashes. All that together with a hihat, but I _really_ have to look into that much, much more..

[ignotus]

Now, something you need to clarify - if you are willing to do so - is about the switches..
Why are people trying to make their own switches, and not simply using filmswitches?

I suppose because it's hard to come by a switch that has the right shape to go around the cymbal edge. If you can find a ready-made filmswitch that suits the purpose and is not expensive, by all means it's a better option than making them yourself. I once found these, but the link to the product no longer works - the website was http://www.85china.com if you want to search for them. They had 10" and 12" membrane switches. I bought some 10" ones but never got round to using them - I wanted to try using them to make a 3-zone ride but they're the wrong radius and it just ended up being a mess. The biggest challenge is the bell switch.

And, are these switches you are talking about true switches?

It's just two conductive surfaces that are normally separated but are made to come into contact by striking (short contact = edge /bell trigger) or grabbing them (long contact = choke).

Do you have any idea why the Keith Raper circuit has a unpredictable outcome, when used?

I think it had to do with the zone separation - that it was nigh on impossible to get proper separation on a cymbal. As far as I know it was originally designed to get piezo/piezo pads to work with Yamaha modules (they need piezo/switch).

What build method for my ride and crashes do you recommend? Which one is the easiest, and most reliable?

Well, that's a tricky one... It really depends on what you want your cymbals to do. I'll tell you what I have; a pretty simple, yet solid setup, using AD:
Two piezo/switch crashes (DIY, pizza slice-shaped, about a 12" radius) with the switch underneath just for choking. The cool thing is that they just have a strip of metal under the rim, wired to the jack ring - it's just one half of the switch. With a certain threshold setting it works as a touch switch, no moving parts so therefore nothing to break. Very easy to make. Easier still, if you use an acoustic cymbal you could connect the jack ring to the cymbal itself and choke it just by touching the cymbal - something I'd like to test in the future.
One 2-zone ride (a 14" bottom hi hat cymbal). Just two piezos, one under the bell (15mm) and one under the bow area (27mm), opposite the area where I strike to get rid of the hot spot. Some tweaking required to separate zones but pretty reliable and also very easy to make. If you're going for an 18" or 20" ride you should have no problem separating zones if you go the 2 piezo route.
A single zone hi hat (acoustic cymbal) and a single zone splash (DIY). Just a piezo under the cymbal. Dead easy.

As it is, I'm happy with the crashes (don't need more zones on them) but would really like to add a 3rd zone to the ride (edge), and maybe a second zone to the hi hat to get the edge/bow nuances that are very often used. The stumbling block for both is the switch... If you can come up with a DIY (or ready-made cheap) switch that doesn't look crap and can withstand a beating, you'll be on to a winner!

[privatex]

I builded hall effect HH controller and two zones hats from an acoustic cymbals which work good but not perfect. For film switch I used thin aluminium tin which is very easy to activate but I'm not satisfied with signal strength from piezo which is picked up simultaneously with switch signal (edge stroke). I'll try some tests with '+ another piezo' to see if that gonna make stronger signal. It's so good to have two zones hi hat so that must be my final achievement.
If this fail I plan to use Roland CY 8 because it have original fabricated switches. Does anyone use this cymbal for hats? I suppose that it will work just fine with megadrum, what you think?