DIY Cymbals & a lot of questions

[stefan1982]

@privatex: Thank you for the links and the information. I'll look into it in the upcoming days..

Furthermore, reading through the forum more and more, searching around the web and drums.com I keep asking myself that when we want to make a 3 zone ride cymbal, how do we get the zone separation to work (Yamaha style)? I really do not seem to understand the actual working..

And what is the exact difference between the YAMAHA approach (1 TRS) vs the Roland approach (2 TRS plugs), when we look at zone separation, sensitivity and other important issues when it comes to DIY cymbals?

[privatex]

From what I know on one stereo input you can connect yamaha 3 zone cymbal pad (piezo/switch/switch). Second approach is using one stereo and one mono input. On stereo goes bow piezo/edge switch and on mono bell piezo (it's piezo/piezo/switch).
If you want to use one surface best way is yamahas system with two switches. Isolating two piezos on one surface is almost imposible.
For some kind of sandwich, multiple isolated zones you can go with two piezos but they have to be very good isolated between each other.
Here is my newest diy 3 zone cymbal pad on which I work this days. Its piezo/piezo/switch system. I use two identic cymbal in sandwich. One cymbal is like base of this pad, and from second one I cut out bell to isolate it from rest of pad. Here are some pics, I'm sorry for my poor description:

On base cymbal I glued 2mm soft PVC. From aluminium tin I make edge switch,isolate bell (glued 2 piezos and make distancer from foam double sided sticky tape), put back rest of massacred second cymbal and that is it. Only thing left to do is to glue bow piezo and bow area to the base and some fine rubber on top of whole pad. That's it. Hope you like it =)

[privatex]

I finished with wiring piezos and switch, on bottom side I added small project box and tested. Here is a video of first test ( I need to cover it with some rubber):

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2ihic ... mbal_music



Update: Once again first metod is yamahas piezo/switch/switch. It uses one piezo for all velocity readings- when you hit bow you trigger only piezo and got bow sound, when you hit edge you link the edge switch which tells megadrum that you play edge than megadrum again get redings from the same piezo as for bow. When you play bell it's same situation like for the edge (bell switch-signal to md that you play bell-velocity readings from same piezo as bow and edge). And that is it.
For pizo/piezo/switch method it's same for bow and edge you got bow piezo and edge switch and it works same as in first explanation. Only difference is for triggering bell instead of using bell switch and velocity readings from first piezo here you have second piezo that is just for bell. This metod I used in previus project, the catch is bell isolation and you saw what I have done for that problem.
My vocabulary is poor and I cant explain to you as well as on my main/first/well known language :) I hope you have now figured out. Cheers!!

[airflamesred]

Your English is fine, mate and thank you for posting. Your explanation is very good and I do like this solution.

[ignotus]

Nice work!

[privatex]

Thanks guys I appreciate your words of support.
I have done some tests with one acoustic cymbal conversion. I put two piezos, one for bow and one for bell, dampening material is same soft PVC similar as on surge cymbals. The idea was born when I read first post of this topic on dmdrummer.com:

http://www.dmdrummer.com/index.php?topic=3527.0

That guy have to repair bell on his surge cymbal (in that moment I found out that they use piezo for bell triggering). After I jump over his post (no one likes that kind of tutorials-words and only words, a lot of them:) at the end I found the key. I mounted bell piezo with foam tape on existing one zone cymbal that I have made earlier. It works exactly as he described in post. When I play bow-bell trigger stay inactive, but when I play bell there's bow piezo triggered too, approximately 50% of full velocity. It sound nice, very natural response similar as acoustic cymbal.
I must share this, it may help a lot to someone who wont bother with isolating, bell switches...
To make isolation between zones even better you can use same system as surge (That is an important point that can make bell sound better with less bow triggering and vice versa, I guess):
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjAwWDgwMA==/ ... R/$_20.JPG

Update: I'm gona stay with isolation and switches at the end ;)

[airflamesred]

Some more good ideas there Privatex. I suppose if you think about it when you hit the bell on an acoustic cymbal you are triggering the the whole cymbal to some extent just mixing by stick placement.
I'm now wondering why Roland and Yamaha have to isolate.

[ignotus]

Some good points there. Yes, I agree, hitting the bell on an acoustic cymbal probably does cause some ring of the bow. The thing is, when you're using a VST, that element is already present in the bell samples as they are recordings of real cymbals being hit on the bell, so when you trigger a bit of a bow sound with a bell hit, you are in fact adding sound that isn't actually present with a real cymbal even if it isn't really notieceable, which is what matters.

[privatex]

You got a point, but there it is maybe best electronic cymbals of our time have that method for real feel, response, look... They must have done some kind of editing and purification of sounds (maker of VSTs). My test has good results, just a little more bow sound. However that bell isolation is pure benefit (it's just a matter of % at the end) and I miss that simple, genius acoustic ride :)

Update: Look what this guy have made:
http://crghffmnn.blogspot.com/p/experim ... ymbal.html

[airflamesred]

The thing is, when you're using a VST, that element is already present in the bell samples as they are recordings of real cymbals being hit on the bell, so when you trigger a bit of a bow sound with a bell hit, you are in fact adding sound that isn't actually present with a real cymbal even if it isn't really notieceable, which is what matters.

True, but the bell sample is usually 80%bell say. So you need that underlying bow to make the transition effective. 'R' and 'Y' don't use proper samples so they may need the isolation for some polyphonic reason maybe.

Another thing which I've mentioned before, wiring the 1 piezo to 2 inputs and controlling the balance with the velocity curves. Not much use here because it's all velocity based rather than the positional you're after but if you have spare inputs they may be of some use. I have my Triggeras wired that way.