Is my Snare Trigger too hot?

[stefan91]

Hi there..

I have another question for you experts.
My Snare is a Drum-Tec Pro 14inch (http://www.drum-tec.de/drumtec-pro-snar ... -1068.html), but there is a problem with dynamics.

When HighLevel is set to round about 600, even medium hits get recognized as "full 127" MIDI Output.
But when HighLevel is increased (for example 700, 800), the MIDI Output won't get more than round about 95 anymore.

So where is the problem? Is the Snaretrigger too hot?

Again, greets from Germany and thanks for your help!

[stefan91]

Here are the settings..
Only Threshold is more like 24 at the moment

[dmitri]

It doesn't seem to be too hot. You just need to choose a different Curve, probably one of Log Curves. Or even adjust one of those Curves to suit you best.

[stefan91]

It doesn't seem to be too hot. You just need to choose a different Curve, probably one of Log Curves. Or even adjust one of those Curves to suit you best.

Hi Dmitri and thanks for your answer!

Unfortunately it's not only the curves, there seems to be another problem.

Yesterday I tested some things, perhaps they can make the situation more clear.

I played a dynamic pattern (4-5 times each, to make sure that there are not much human tolerances) and recorded the MIDI-Output. I did 1-2 loud hits at the beginning, then a transition from very weak to strong hits.

The first Picture (#3720) shows a MIDI Output of Megadrum, when playing a T-Drum Trigger, mounted on a 12" Tom with Meshheads. The dynamics are perfect in my opinion - Maximum value 127 is not reached too soon, the whole dynamic spectrum is available.

For the second Picture (#3722) I connected a Drum-Tec Pro Snare to Megadrum. The weak hits are good too, but the main Problem is, that high MIDI values (127) are reached very soon. There seem to be no "between values" detected in the upper-mid MIDI values (i tripple checked this).
So as a first step I increased the highlevel (seems Logical to me?!) - so it should not produce a full 127 MIDI Output so "fast" with only medium hits. But then the Maximum Output becomes lower. So 127 can't be reached anymore with very strong hits. Now I tried to assign a quiet strong LogCurve as you mentioned. The LogCurve seems to help with the Dynamics of the medium values, but still the Maximum 127 MIDI Out is generated too soon (see Picture #3727)

To check, if it's the Snares fault, I borrowed a Roland TD-25 and connected the snare to it - playing the same dynamic pattern. The result is shown in Picture #3724. What you can see: 1) Low values are handled not very good, I can't reach very low MIDI-Output values, but 2) the differentiation between medium strong and very strong hits is still there (so: not a clear cut in dynamic between medium Output and full Output).

The question is... How can I get there with Megadrum

- Are you sure the snare isn't too hot?
- Gain is set to 0. Is there any difference of A) getting gain up, but treshold down and B) getting gain down, but treshold up?


Many thanks four your help again and greets from Germany...!

[ignotus]

I'm pretty sure a potentiometer or trimmer in the offending pad would solve your problem. Physically dampening the piezo could also help, but that would mean messing with the trigger setup and that would probably void your warranty. I have also experienced that issue with some pads and a properly tuned 10k trimmer brought back all the mid-range dynamics.

Looking at the pot or trimmer from the back (knob or dial away from you), the piezo ceramic wire goes to the left-hand pin, the right-hand pin goes to the jack sleeve (where the piezo brass also goes), and the middle pin goes to the jack tip. If you can solder it should take 10 minutes to do.

[dmitri]

Believe it or not but it is all to do with correct Curves. Different pads/cymbals produce different signal curves for hits from weak to hard.
E.g.
1. if with a Linear Curve MIDI velocities vary too much for weak hits then you have to use another Curve with a flatter line at the left side of the curve.
2. if with a Linear Curve MIDI velocities vary too much for hard hits then you have to use another Curve with a flatter line at the right side of the curve.
3. if with a Linear Curve MIDI velocities vary too much for medium hits then you have to use another Curve with a flatter line at the the middle of the curve.

Curves are there to compensate a non-linear "hits strength"/"output signal level" relation.

[stefan91]

Believe it or not but it is all to do with correct Curves. Different pads/cymbals produce different signal curves for hits from weak to hard.
E.g.
1. if with a Linear Curve MIDI velocities vary too much for weak hits then you have to use another Curve with a flatter line at the left side of the curve.
2. if with a Linear Curve MIDI velocities vary too much for hard hits then you have to use another Curve with a flatter line at the right side of the curve.
3. if with a Linear Curve MIDI velocities vary too much for medium hits then you have to use another Curve with a flatter line at the the middle of the curve.

Curves are there to compensate a non-linear "hits strength"/"output signal level" relation.

Thanks, I could improve mid-range dynamics with the curves - but the problem, that a medium strong hit generates MIDI-Out 127, is still there. The curve can't fix this, because it's only the last point of the curve where those hits are. When I decrease this last point of the curve 127 can't be reached anymore, even with very strong hits.
So in a perfect world medium strong hits wouldn't have such a strong signal.. Perhaps I have to try the poti..

[dmitri]

If signals varies considerably for the same hit strength in all hit strength ranges then nothing can fix it - the signal is too bad. You can only improve it with Curves for some hit strength ranges for the cost of of other hit strength ranges.

[stefan91]

If signals varies considerably for the same hit strength in all hit strength ranges then nothing can fix it - the signal is too bad. You can only improve it with Curves for some hit strength ranges for the cost of of other hit strength ranges.

(the problems in the MIDI velocity range 40-100 could be solved by curves, this is working fine now)

Concering my previous post:
Sorry I think you misunderstod me.. It's not about the same hit strength and variing velocities, it's about getting to the top of MIDI velocity 127 too fast.


Medium strong hit --> MIDI Velocity 127
Very strong hit --> MIDI velocity 127

--> Increasing High-Level

Medium strong hit --> MIDI Velocity 115
Very strong hit --> MIDI Velocity 115
(115 is jus t aexample, depends on how high I go with highlevel)

--> high-level increasing isn't the solution, megadrum just can't recognize a signal-difference in medium strong vs. very strong hits.


Since the Drum-Tec Pro Snare is about 500 €, i couldn't bevlieve its triggering is so shabby...
The triggering is very similar to roland pads so I made a experiment:

Drum-Tec Pro Snare
--> Insert Cable (splits the two signals of the 3-pole cable in two 2-pole cables)
--> Old Mixer that was lying aroung
--> Head-Signal to Channel 1, Rim-Signal to Channel 2
--> Decrease the output of the head signal with the channel fader (which is technically a poti?)
--> Route the tweo signals to the Output of the mixer (seperately)
--> Insert Cable (takes the two output channels of the mixer and combines them to one 3-pole cable)
--> MegaDrum

What can i say: It works perfect!!
Dynamics are great and Megadrum now can handle to seperate velocities of medium strong and very strong hits (high level had to be decreased)
... are there any electrical concerns regarding this routing? - not a pro in this area

Thanks again for your help dmitri and ignotus!!

[dmitri]

To be honest, I had a Drumtec 14" for testing and I don't remember such issues. It worked fine in all ranges. The only way to investigate it would be to take oscilloscope readings from the pad for medium and hard hits when it is connected to MegaDrum.